(though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). Maybe Im wrong on that. How to Resign from a Church But are *we* the measure of truth? This is what has been preached to many people over and over. A stupendously important point, Jeff. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. Pg 81 But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. CALVIN! I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. Im just genuinely puzzled about this. People often pretend as though there is a dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism. And thanks for your honest answers. I didn't know what I should read first as I attempted to learn more. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. Do you share these thoughts? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. I could not. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. Would you want to answer that one? We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Look for them. What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Prayer Requests I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. @ Junkster: My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. Bailey Smith. The whole idea of total depravity is simply to say that you must be elect in spite of yourself, regardless of how good or bad you are because good and bad dont really mean anything to God as far as WHY He saves some and not others. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. Tell himyou love himanyway. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. 1 Cor. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! The 10 Best Non Calvinist Systematic Theology of 2022 Before making a purchase decision, we strongly recommend reading through the features of each Non Calvinist Systematic Theology and picking one that will work best for you. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. One more thing. I think that is biblical. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. Very good points on suggestions for non-Cs on how to view Cs. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. Which is fine! Might we call what youre describing love? And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. F.B. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. ). What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? Thats why. I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. But the rest of the bad stuff? However, Brian (a Calvinist) brought up a new topic and I decided since there was so much dialogue, I could easily keep the debate to one thread. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. Ive not tried to convince anyone that they are sinful or wrong for not believing what I believe. It seems to me that JeffS and Craig (over at SSB) understand that point and are processing it beautifully. I still have those moments, though they are less prolonged than they used to be. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. R.C. Now I believe it and I think its what scripture teaches, but how in the world can it be necessary and central to the Gospel if the church didnt even think about it in earnest for 1500 years? As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. To be fair to Calvin and Darwin, Im not a Bulbeckist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. We dont have to dwell on our differences. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. All the water in the glass was tainted with a bit of black dye, but it was not pure black and saturated with the dye. list of non calvinist theologiansleap year program in python using for loop. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 The word "Gospel" which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. Jesus wept. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. )<br><br>A few lists you will want to check out. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Glad to have someone who gets my background! God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? The way total depravity was explained to me (via a G. I. Williamson commentary on one of the Westminster Catechisms, cant remember if it was longer or shorter) was with the example of a glass of water. So thankful to be free, now. I had no reason not to believe. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. But I know the principles are the same. But something has changed in the last number of years. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. who needs systems & neat little boxes? There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. Unfortunately, to some, that means I may not even be a Christian. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. Might we call what youre describing love? However, they are limited, just as we are. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. We have a question for you? But are *we* the measure of truth? This is also (imo) true for many, many people. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. I would really like to understand this assertion you made. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. I think Heb. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. @ Nick Bulbeck: Hmm not sure I agree, but if were OK on the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, alls well! But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. Also, Jesus talked a lot about hell.