The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Train, train train and when your done. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. But I think your decision is not based on any real scientific backing and is more rooted in confirmation bias than anything. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. I have used the 1911 govt. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Ammunition can really change performance. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. Ret. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Okay all handgun are garbage. Practice, practice, practice. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Just bless his little Prsident heart. #firearmtraining. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. Why arent both so much better than .223? Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. All rights reserved. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Rookie year. Sorry for the rant. Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. That should be the only real factor considered. Startle affect. Oh, and Sgt. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. They ability to kill. By the way. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. spot on ! ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. WebSearch: 45 Acp Damage Human Body. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? Model. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. This represents a cultural shift in America. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. But I agree, I would LOVE to see more true American companies represented!! It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. Not aim shoot. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. Glocks are cheap and reliable. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. and I guess $$.. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. Why do I say that? For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. THAT shot better make a change. Good article and very good to great comments. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. They are a secondary source at best. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. and love a SA trigger. The double stack G19 is thicker. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. D.R. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents.