In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. I have heard Driscoll in person.. Years ago, he spoke from the pulpit against the expansion of casino gambling in Missouri. I view it as wisdom. and it even works better when there is cheap grace and forgiveness all around. . Some great insights there, Bob. i dont have that conscience when i am running off on my own and not caring about serving Jesus, but instead caring about how big my kingdom is or how big an influence i am making or how much press i got this week or how many people got baptized. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. He appealed that he had no say in the matter. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. It is an issue of protecting other people. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. pastor says: No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. Is this similar to Radical Chic? Good luck to you Sam. Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. Open Discussion Page. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. Wouldnt you encourage him to find another vocation? He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. @ Lydia: I think older people ignored the bad boy Driscoll because he seemed to be reaching the young people. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. If after many years of that, he wrote a book about how God brought about change within, Id be interested in reading it. we see this in culture and politics all the time. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. You have a holy responsibility to lead your flock in truth and light yet you are deliberately misleading them. I was reading related posts and noticed hes playing the martyr role as Driscoll did. James River Church attenders should google What happens if you get a bad teacher. In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. It was like my eyes were open. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. Mark was talking about Mark. It is deceiving men so they will be more inclined to pay those 500+ employees their hundred thousand dollar pay packages. And Shifting the Blame. rather than come in glory he came in humility. It is certainly understandable we would see it differently. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm Its what he does. The kid starts expecting it. CAn you see him in some sort of corporate environment working for a woman? It is often just a wise thing to do if one is familiar with those types. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. he smiles and there is love in his heart. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. I agree more with you than I would like to. until he says otherwise what else can a person think? Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. it sounds like you have a story of sorts. this discussion you make today determines your destiny, God wants you to forgive. I saw many warnings but there seemed to be some explanation for most of it. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. You are doing exactly what you accuse the bloggers of. From my perspective, the problem with Driscolls repentance is the same as the problem with the Chandler apology. But I never want to deliberately post any false information so I do appreciate any corrections you can add. Forgive him? He is a draw. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. But I am surprised he delivered his message from on high the pulpit. I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. i think that it worked quite well for Youth with a Mission for several years and then it went awry and i dont know the particulars of what happened. Join us LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm and 7pm! There is a very strong argument for both priests and politicians to have both life and work experience before they enter the fray, however this is the age of the career priest and pollie. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Why I did not run I do not know except I had a contract. Brian Houston, pastor of Hillsong Church, issued a statement over the weekend, which drew considerable media attention. in prison. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. i dont know what the answer is except to not get under the pastor leader concept ever. He had simply accepted the rumors. https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/. I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. His Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and Jesus never asked a single person for a single penny. Connection ends, shunning begins and the cycle begins all over again with the next batch of newbies. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. we will see jesus face to face I dont want you to take your slander etc with you. I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. Excellent comment! Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. A large percentage of modern evangelical mega-churchianity is beyond comprehenshion. There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books, Theyre having new revelations from heaven haha i mean from the internet blogs that they cant escape. CCHD is extremely concerned about the health and well-being of all our community members and particularly those who attended the high-capacity event over the weekend. Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. @ sam: "It is possible for someone who has practiced a life of adultery to stop," he said in the sermon. Did MD admit to being WWII under duress or was that more mischief from Dark Miscoll? He can darn well get used to a lower standard of living. He faces re-election April 7. I never thought of that but that certainly might be the case. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Its kind of like that movie Winters Bone where the communities are closed to a fault. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. For the Christmas services, additional services were added to further provide for social distancing. How can they do that? Lets see. I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). During those early years they had a great impact on hurting people and a great testimony of the work of the Lord in a group of people dedicated to doing whatever He led them to do. full of manly manness and praise of human strength and wisdom and all the attributes mark has himself. I cannot respect or support these men knowing that they revere such a man as a pastor. 20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. This captures precisely what I have been sensing as well. I think the guys a jerk and theres plenty of evidence out there for it. The opposition is to Jesus. I find it telling that it contains 41 mentions of "sin," "sinners" and "sinfulness.". If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. LOL! when the pastor first says, his humility he almost breaks out laughing (cause maybe he knows how stupid it is to say that). So I can see why some churches would want him on board. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. If anything, Chandler has to present himself as the UnMark to a degree that few connect dots. I have heard Driscoll in person.. mark chose to step down not mark was removed. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). Are they the ones that keep praying for their leaders to be decent people who dont crave power and position? pic.twitter.com/Wt6wZOdE9J. That is certainly not an idea they got from the Bible. He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. Actually are pews still in general use? Tom Lane already draws a massive six figure salary yet it is never enough. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they havent asked for forgiveness? The emails we received were similarly written. What I didnt know until this year is how much they are invading their universities as well. There could be some better teaching on this but too many appear to receive their teaching from celebrity pastors who then take advantage of them. I have no power over what Driscoll does and he is free to speak on any stage that will have him. It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. . Just show-biz. And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. I really appreciate your insights Lydia. helpful or even hopeful in terms of my eternal afterlife. When Robert brags about lunching with Greg Abbott, golfing with George W Bush or being Rick Santorums spiritual advisor, it makes me feel ill. where is God in all this? Maybe then, someone would seek him out to lead and it would be safe again. And so on. I sometimes think the man has no friends, but if he does, they should help him now. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. The program includes signing over any welfare benefits to the Ministry, with the program alleged to contain little actual psychological assistance, and mostly prayer and expelling demons. His auto suggestive words were a dead give away! Mencken: No one in this world, so far as I know and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Persecuted, but You cant criticize me for a moment. "It is possible for someone who has been a life-long alcoholic to stop. That got my attention as I was reading the comments yesterday evening. Another aspect of the way I approach this is to consider where the burden of proof lies. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. Any of all of that may be true. I know people who were previously baptized that jumped in to get the swag. Also, as Driscolls friend, John Piper, wrote: pastors are not professionals. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. Sometimes the writers have an agenda, at others, there is more of an assumption of knowledge that the original readers/hearers possessed that we dont. IMO, They are still who they are. It was really bad, disastrous I might even say. I have always found this aspect of Pauls story very interesting. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. Every week seems to get more strange and more openly cult like. Nancy, i think theres a lot of truth to what you say, and its more than posdible that people he was addressing in his letters knew at least something about that. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. The sad part is that members have no idea how they are viewed unless they ask uncomfortable questions. If others havent heard this song yet, give it a try and see what you think. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. Dont you want to be a part of that? People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). He has not shown himself capable of being trusted with that sort of ministry in the first place. Pastors who give Mark Driscoll a platform are adding to the abuse of those of us who were abusively treated by Mars Hill Church. they may think i just sit around judging peoples apologies or repentance. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? He did it from one of the most powerful places in Southwest Missouri the pulpit of James River Church, where he leads an Assemblies of God congregation that often tops 9,000 worshipers on. How can they do that? Here me in this, the issue is Jesus. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. We saw a good deal of quick forgiveness/cheap grace from defenders of TVC. News articles and such are also greatly appreciated. there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. He needs to clean up the mess that he made. I believe they were simply behaving as their normal selves. He has lots of pics holding impoverished babies while his own 5 kids barely saw him. Who has wounded you? © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. i havent seen any video or statement where he has actually apologized for anything except being mean when he should have been nicer in throwing people under the bus, shoulda offered them a pillow maybe so they didnt hit the ground so hard, but totally right in throwing them. he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Mark flatly denied it, but I believe we may be seeing a pattern here. During this pandemic we have helped thousands of people with food, financial assistance, counsel, and spiritual encouragement. MD should never have been a pastor based on how much contempt he has for his fellow man. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. Robert Morris loves putting his flock under the law regarding Mosaic Law tithing and also under Deuteronomy so he can squeeze out extravagant gifts. . I asked where he got such information. (I saw a guy do this on a live stage in England once, on a YouTube video. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. Also, you dont want the sheep to get uppity. In case this was not a rhetorical question, Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community. I dont think he is qualified to lead any church or ministry of any size until he exhibits the fruit of the Spirit for a long, long time. Im not invested in liking or disliking Che so I truly welcome your comments. Actually, I think the timing was just for that reason. The financial aspects. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising They are described as brilliant. Plus Driscoll has to be way cheaper than Judah Smith or Carl Lentz, the current kings of radical chic. one passenger died. What a waste of a ministry! As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. kudos to the hosts of the aussie tv show that made brian huston look at the absolute facts and rediculousness of his supporting (and paying for) an american mega pastor who is well known in christian circuits I use the term rediculous because I dont want to be mean or judgmental, but I believe that brian was all for helping mark get back in the saddle until it cost him some publicity. And these leaders present themselves as one thing but are deceiving people the entire time. What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. His appeal, then and now, has much to do with his looks plus a perception of him being anti-establishment, which he was. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. They knew exactly what they were buying. Of course, the major players seem to emulate and incorporate some of the more questionable practices of each other so in a way we are ending up with a somewhat homogenous giga experience like GW having one of those Guest Central kiosks you mentioned. Forgiveness does not address that issue at all. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. In your mega travels, Lydia, whats the biggest honorarium from tithe dollars you have been privy to? Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. My heart aches for all those whom Mark Driscoll hurt from the Petrys and Meyers to the young and impressionable. (he is still famous and worthy of famous people helping him) things you have heard about mark are not even close to true, what you read on the internet isn't true. Somebody cited a study that the most common characteristic of a Sociopath (well over 90%) was successfully Playing the Victim Card when caught. So as long as Driscoll can provide entertainment and ratings, Pentecostals will continue to book him. In a statement to the Ozarks Independent, James River Church said it has taken temperatures at the door, sanitized its children's areas and common areas multiple times per day, provided masks. Lydia wrote: Did nefarious conspirators plagiarize his books, hire Result Source and use his evil twin again to go with his wife to meet with his agents to put that $210,000 manipulation in place, all behind the real MDs back? Youre not one of us. I simply offer another perspective. It really bothers me that he seems to profane things still. Only when inquiring about membership was their any discussion of W2s and the appropriate amount to tithe. I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon our orphans. He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership.